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should 2 stable trainer races count

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  • #16
    My contributions here are that OPTICS are important for our community leaders. When we make decisions, we need to consider their implications from all angles. Intent is one thing, but unintended consequences occur [even accidentally John] when we do not consider all perspectives.

    I know for a fact on chat you have been coaching and helping NAS, and I think that is admirable.....I even helped a bit, and you know that....... But let's consider Eddie's perspective as a possible negative perception from an "optics" viewpoint. Dragon has been busting his ass, claiming everything in sight, and this is a situation where "Eddie is right and you are not wrong, but please consider the consequences of even little actions".

    What will eventually happen is a limit to the number of TCR's one can create on a monthly basis, and/or a 3-owner minimum for TCR's.

    Take away the emotions and look strictly at the results. This is not something we would want a stable making a HUGE run after 15+ seasons to see on the results page. I wouldn't, you wouldn't, nobody would. You are not wrong, in the strictest sense of the rules, but in the "spirit of the game", and in the "optics", please consider potential consequences, particularly from 2-trainer TCR's.

    Thanks Greek, and I know you do not take this personally. You are an asset, like Eddie and several others. We need to work together. This is no big deal, but I feel it was very important that Eddie pointed it out, for future reference to the community, all other things aside.

    My best John,
    Orb
    - Orb Farms

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    • #17
      Orb, I pointed out some of the implications back when Lone gave us the right to Create TCR races, and I think it was pressure from guys like me that thought it was unfair only a few had the privilege that made Lone decide to give everyone a chance to make them. As I said before I was WRONG. (1) I knew they would get out of control and take away from other cards being filled. (2) I seen them as no restrictions races where any caliber of horse can enter. I also said they were only good for getting a 10 win pass and will come back and bite us in the ass (Go back and read it).

      There is a Fix,
      Make all TCR races go through Lone or Dog first to make sure they don't interfere with other big races. Put a limit of one at a time, not 4 or 5. Have restrictions that fit the enter fee. These races can work if monitored correctly. Dog has the wrong cure by saying every one can create the same races to even the win scores, it would only add wood to the fire.
      Orb, when I tried to get these implications across last time, I think your reply was: I like TCR races PERIOD.

      If these TCR races are allowed to continue the way they are set up now, more arguing and fights will break out until we end up losing some great stables because of it. JMHO

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      • #18
        I don't want ANY admin interference....I just want us to.consider all implications prior to creating them.....my position has not changed......the ONLY criteria I am troubled by - and this is my view on 3 horse races for 5 seasons now - is 2 trainer races and 3 horse races......I have my opinions on them, and that opinion is no different with TCR

        Orb
        - Orb Farms

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        • #19
          Whether claiming, allowance, or TCR, My personal opinion is that three horses does not make a race.....Even if they are 40 percent of current races, that doesn't mean we cannot fix it

          Orb
          - Orb Farms

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          • #20
            If people are concerned about trainer's getting "easy" wins and affecting the trainer's leader board at season's end then perhaps Lone and the IT guys can come up with a point system, whereby a win in a 1K to 12K race would be worth one point, 20K, 2 points, etc.

            Doesn't NASCAR have some knid of points system to determine the title winner each year.

            ​Don't know how difficult it would be to implement and I, for one, don't pay too much attention to the standings.

            Burky
            STAR OF THE DESERT STABLE
            LAS VEGAS, NEVADA, USA
            HANDICAPPING DUD

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            • #21
              Great point Burky - I have been thinking of doing this - I'vs been working on the math and outline . I wont have it ready for next season ,but will have something for the community to vote on by next season . I think a Stake win vs 12 horses would be worth more then a stake win vs 5 horses . It is a little more complicated , but trying to make it more simple to understand . Thanks Burky .
              Admin.

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              • #22
                This maybe a little off topic but,
                I think the TCR are filling a gap. One that we really shouldn't need but once in awhile like the Greeko SA races last Saturday. and the occasional big race like we've seen recently,
                and of course the one scheduled for next season. It's good for member to help drive the RP and the game in general. but a properly race schedule promotes planning and skill like things.

                I think the RP is too congested with races that don't fill. Too many spaces between claim levels. Div-D C B etc? Allowance? not all are necessary.
                From memory I think Orb posted (in a different context) some claim levels.
                I am seeing...
                Claiming $100 (optional), this could be the top level horses competing on the optional flag. and help to keep lesser horses honest.
                Claiming $75
                Claiming $50
                Claiming $25
                Claiming $12
                Claiming $1 (winner takes all as we have now)

                the claiming gap are too small 3000, 6000 same horses when considering post, instruction, one race wonders, hit the wall after a couple races. same class.
                The Div races don't really do much on this site. I could barely get a A or B to go and the C are not far behind.
                I think adapt NW2 and NW3 (they will be open to maidens)
                With the Q's, OWS, finals a BC plus a couple of TCR's should be good.

                Essentially if a horse can't cut it after 3 wins stakes races it's a claimer. High to Low where ever it can compete.
                Maiden Claimers can also be on $50 and $12 claimers

                btw, the top claiming level could be different depending on how much a good horse cost. $75 in this case. $50 may even be better.

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                • #23
                  Could simplify the wins issue to letting the money earned per season be the determination on ToY etc. should work out the same as it would with a purse system. whoever wins the most money is going to lead the win standings based on suggest structure.
                  ** at 21:06, Brian joined the Lobby...
                  Brian Ta Das...

                  https://www.facebook.com/digitaldowns.us
                  https://twitter.com/Digitaldowns_US

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                  • #24
                    Good Point Brian . That might be a better way to reward the Trainer Of The Year.

                    ​Chris we are looking at your overall idea and we do think there is a better way . The only issue we have with the higher claimers is that trainers do not like taking a chance of losing their better horses . I will try to post something in the next day or two about a different layout see how the community feels about it . Thanks
                    Admin.

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                    • #25
                      I don't think I agree with Trainer of the Year being decided on winnings. For me, there's more skill in correctly placing an entire barn well, than placing in the higher payout races. That's only my opinion though. For me, this year Norm winning at 27% over 1500+ runs out-weighs the extra winnings of Greeko. There's also far more chance that individual races will have a big impact on the standings with winnings over wins. For example, in Greeko's big sponsored race, WCR received an approx 0.16% boost to his wins total for the win, and about a 19.9% boost to his winnings for a single race. King G received about a 13.8% boost to his winnings for the one race. Ranking by winnings is going to be hugely prone to massive swings based on the results of individual races, which I don't believe the overall Trainer Awards for the season should be. I could see a stand alone prize for the top money earner of the season being a good idea though, as it is definitely a great achievement to pull that off.

                      In regards to the initial part of the post, about should match races count for the wins total, I don't think they should. But I also don't think Greeko was trying to game the standings by racing North. He's regularly in chat and has commented many times about wanting the ability to just spin up a race any time there are people around. I have never seen the 'create a race' interface, but Lone could it not work like this : When you go to create a race, could there be an option to specifically create a match race? So the system knows it only a 2 horse, 2 stable deal. Could be open to anyone, or have a password so that the right stable joins in. Then when the race engine goes to do its thing, it can perform the check 'Is this a Match Race', if YES then don't do the standings update process, if NO then carries on as usual.

                      On a side note, as it was mentioned earlier, what is admins ( and the communities ) thoughts on using trainer races to get breeders to 10 runs? I've thought about it before as a way to prevent future breeders getting claimed out, but have not actually done it as it felt a bit against the spirit of things. If you really value the bloodline you can ultimately race in a create stakes, allowance, div race etc at a higher fee. Interested what people think on it
                      Jason, owner of Aragon Stables operating out of Perth, Australia

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                      • #26
                        Thanks for responding Lone...

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