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Black Friday Deposit Bonus ---- Yearlings

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  • #16
    I can get some data this weekend - Plus these yearlings will have the ability to get better since we added the ability to train them up . Thanks and Good Luck
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    • #17
      Deposit 100k thanks

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      • #18
        When you change something like workout times we should get some more heads up and more info about it. I slaughtered most of what I bred as 1YO before knowing any of this. Furthermore....I have no idea of what you mean by they will improve with off track training. Does this mean if I dont use off track training they won't improve to normal racing ability? What changes were made with the offtrack training? As of now I can only move the meters 3 times a day however in the past you could work a horse as much as you needed to before it was raced. If your telling me I need the offtrack training then I am truly back to 3 works a day.

        Hundreds of horses....don't have time for this! I won't breed a single yearling again without more info. I already wasted $120 before any knowledge was given to me about changes to 1YO.
        Tockyocky Racing
        From the gate to the wire...stable on FIRE

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        • #19
          Made a deposit thanks.

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          • #20
            Deposit made.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Tockyocky Racing View Post
              When you change something like workout times we should get some more heads up and more info about it. I slaughtered most of what I bred as 1YO before knowing any of this. Furthermore....I have no idea of what you mean by they will improve with off track training. Does this mean if I dont use off track training they won't improve to normal racing ability? What changes were made with the offtrack training? As of now I can only move the meters 3 times a day however in the past you could work a horse as much as you needed to before it was raced. If your telling me I need the offtrack training then I am truly back to 3 works a day.

              Hundreds of horses....don't have time for this! I won't breed a single yearling again without more info. I already wasted $120 before any knowledge was given to me about changes to 1YO.
              This was done last season. Its like a extra " free " add on to 1yo only . yes you can only do 3 trains a day on OTT , but you can still timed WO as many times as you like. The difference between this season OTT and last season is you have more you can add to your yearling and take away .

              Like all Add ons if you geld or add horseshoes you will change the effect of OTT.

              You can also multi train them vs 2yo to get a baseline for your yearlings . You also have more control of your Multi Training then in the past.

              It will take more time and work , but we believe it will add more to the yearling . It might even make a negative into a positive .
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              • #22
                Lone your are still not telling me anything. How do 9 out of 10 1YO horses work higher than 1:10 at 6F? How do you have more control over multi train then in the past? All i see is the same exact thing. Move the meter 3 times!!! What am I missing?

                Please spare me the "FREE" aspect as that is insulting.
                Tockyocky Racing
                From the gate to the wire...stable on FIRE

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                • #23
                  I have a question about the OTT. If a yearling improves, does this change its genetics, i.e. will it breed better than it would have without the OTT?

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Tockyocky Racing View Post
                    Lone your are still not telling me anything. How do 9 out of 10 1YO horses work higher than 1:10 at 6F? How do you have more control over multi train then in the past? All i see is the same exact thing. Move the meter 3 times!!! What am I missing?

                    Please spare me the "FREE" aspect as that is insulting.

                    Lone...this is the same argument I made last season when you introduced the OTT and new yearling times and you never addressed any of the questions. IMO you have not provided enough info to make it worth spending money on yearlings. It makes no sense to me that the yearlings are on a completely different time scale (1:10 times instead of 1:09) and the OTT only makes a difference of .02 or .03...not a significant change when you are starting at 1:10. I might see it if they just worked slower as yearlings because they are "babies" and then a 2yo age change made them faster but with the ones I bred last year that didn't happen. They were just as slow when I worked them (and ran them) as 2yo. I think you need to give more info and some very detailed data about the success or failure of last seasons yearlings. Otherwise I'm of the mindset that they are not worth spending money on and when all you basically say is "trust me" they will be competitive doesn't convince me.

                    Another question I have that you referred to above..."Like all Add ons if you geld or add horseshoes you will change the effect of OTT. "

                    You stated when horseshoes were introduced that the only effect they had was to increase a horses racing lifespan by reducing the wear and tear of racing. If that's the case then why should they have any effect on workouts?

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by And More Racing Stable View Post
                      I think you need to give more info and some very detailed data about the success or failure of last seasons yearlings. Otherwise I'm of the mindset that they are not worth spending money on and when all you basically say is "trust me" they will be competitive doesn't convince me.
                      Statistically 1yo will have no better or worse success / failure than 2yo's. When people say my yearlings don't perform they can say the exact same thing about 2yo's. The hope for 1yo's are different and the wait is different which impacts expectations. Additionally the success and failure has more to do with the trainer and where the trainer places the horse and how the trainer runs the horse.

                      I don'y mind yearlings at all...I think they are great. My issue is with this latest change. I believe Lone's goal here is in the right place but the delivery and execution is below par. Site is working on a way to eliminate as much of the negative viewpoints on yearlings as possible. I applaud the attempt however i have no idea whats going on which means I won't breed.

                      Tockyocky Racing
                      From the gate to the wire...stable on FIRE

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Tockyocky Racing View Post

                        Statistically 1yo will have no better or worse success / failure than 2yo's.
                        That's not necessarily true. I agree that with the old yearling program the success / failure rate was comparable and that the issues were basically perception however this programming appears to be a significant change from the previous programming and that can potentially alter the results drastically. It might not have but I would like some stats to back it up.

                        Out of 34 horses that are listed on the season 41 top horses by either races won or money won I can identify 3 of them that were bred as yearlings. That's not bad but of note is that all 3 of them worked very well as yearlings. As you stated above 9 out of 10 yearlings now seem to work very slow and I don't see OTT making anywhere near a full second difference in training times so maybe it's a case that only 10% are going to be reasonably able to compete . If that's the case then so be it but that's a stat we should know in order to make our decision whether to buy or not because that would be a significant difference from competitiveness of 2yo breds.

                        I also applaud Lone's attempt to change the perception. I'm just not convinced this was the right way to do it.

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                        • #27
                          Many of the top 34 horses in money won and wins are the same horses and across different ages. Also 34 horses of probably thousands. Your forgetting a few things like career cycle and race purse sizes for races at the beginning of the season and towards season end.

                          The off track work tool is merely a tool that allows you to manipulate attributes. I don't know this for certain but based on my expertise this is exactly what this is. It's pure numbers. If i bred 100 yearlings with G1 works and then bred 100 2yo's with G1 works I will put my entire stable and credits on hand up that the same percentage of horses will race its works, not race its works, need to be gelded, turn into claimers, have a solid 4 race career or have a solid 2yo - 4yo career with a fair + / - range.

                          There might be only 2 other trainers here now that have bred more horses than me on this game. The 1yo perception is off....you can "TRUST" me on this. These horses will either run or they won't and where they run if they run is only determined by how they are today not 2 weeks ago. I already know going into it that a portion of my hopeful 1yo's will be disappointing gelded claimers.

                          Back to the main point we are both making. I'm just uncomfortable spending money on an unknown situation. I don't understand the works and either I dont understand this off track tool or I just dont have the patience. There is only one thing here I love more than racing and that is breeding. I'm a sucker for it. My favorite thing to do is breed a bunch of horses and open them up like wrapped presents. I probably have 10 good horses to most peoples one good horse. Stockpiled and ready to go on command. Unfortunately i will not be able to breed 1yo's since apparently I'm clueless
                          Tockyocky Racing
                          From the gate to the wire...stable on FIRE

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Nut Brown Racing View Post
                            I have a question about the OTT. If a yearling improves, does this change its genetics, i.e. will it breed better than it would have without the OTT?
                            Full Disclosure as we are trying to be as transparent as possible .I think this is the best approach . We believe that being upfront and transparent will give everyone the best chance to be successful and enjoy the site more .

                            There is a race engine / Breeding engine that we can not change . What we can do is do add ons before a horses data is entered into race engine /breeding engine .

                            I always do change in small .01 -.03 increments. a 10th of a percent to 3 10ths . The reason is because it could have big negative effects on the site (super creates is an example) if we did big changes ..

                            I think most will agree that it took 3 to 4 season to get the bias of the track to not be such a big factor . I know there is still bias but its way better .

                            There was also a big issue with 1yo training . The chances of a 1yo and 2yo being good are about the same . The thing that was different was the training of 1yo vs 2yo . The 1yo training was purposely made to run faster . This was done in my opinion to sell more yearlings ( false hope) of great horses . What will did was remove the positive bias vs 1yo .That is why you see a slower 1yo . I think this is how it should be . A 1yo should be slower then a 2yo . You can retrain all your 1yo when they turn 2yo . Next season we will be running the eliminator on the 3rd giving everyone a chance to retest 1yo's .

                            Changes we have made - These are all positive changes for trainers .

                            We removed purse % the site took
                            We added Horse shoes - ( designed to give horses more lifetime races)
                            We are running 3yo with the same weight of 2yo ( also designed to give horses more lifetime races)
                            Creates can no longer be bought as 3yo
                            Creates sex is also random ( this will help the site get more good mares ,creates make good breeders)
                            Multi training . You can now choose gate - jockey and instruction for each horse -
                            OTT - last season was a small change as AMRS pointed out . It is more this season .


                            to AMRS question of why it effects training . if designed to extent lifetime . Both Race engine and WO use all the horses data . Both Engines see horse has Horseshoes it will adjust for them . They Use the data a little different , but both take into effect what the horseshoes do to a horse .

                            Nut Brown question about genetics - The new version of OTT does effect its genetics slightly in a positive way . So a horse born as a 1yo will have the ability to enhance itself with your training .
                            We think this helps trainers have more control of their yearlings . This season it will be more then the .03 of last season . We will give everyone 3 free codes to try the yearlings . We think you will enjoy the yearling much more then in the past. We have tried for close to 10 seasons to improve the 1yo issue . I think this is the season yearling become a positive .
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                            Last edited by Cold Dog Soup; 12-02-2018, 05:13 PM.
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                            • #29
                              I think you are missing the point I'm trying to make Toc...or maybe I'm just not clear on it.

                              First, the 34 top horses I mentioned are the 34 different horses from the 40 spots on number of wins and money won lists. My mention of this fact has nothing to do with percentage of whether horses are good or not. I simply looked at that list to see if there were ANY who were bred as yearlings. I found there were 3 but as I noted I also noticed that all 3 had good yearling works unlike so many other yearlings bred. That would be expected.

                              Now to my point that I think you are missing or I haven't been clear on. I completely agree that if 100 bred yearlings and 100 bred 2yo have G1 works then I would expect comparable numbers from the two groups. However, where I'm not sure the percentages match up is in the number of G1 working horses per the number of horses bred. In other words, if hypothetically you bred 500 horses as 2yo to get those 100 G1 workers would it be the same for yearlings or would you get fewer G1 workers from 500 yearling breedings? All things being equal you should get comparable numbers but from what I've seen of the abundance of yearlings with drastically slower works that didn't improve at all as 2yo I'm concerned that the percentage of quality working horses one gets might be lower in yearlings which in turn lowers the percentage of quality horses one can expect from horses bred. Now I'll admit my sampling is much smaller than yours and others but I know I can breed 2yo with a certain expectation of horses that will work good and maybe have potential but from the yearlings I bred last season I didn't get a single one that could out work a turtle carrying an elephant for a jockey.

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                              • #30
                                1 YO do not improve turning 2 YO. A 1 Yo is essentially a 2 Yo labeled 1 YO for the purpose of the game. Originally intended to have horses ready to race as 2yo day one of the season. The era of the eliminators. Later used as a way to produce revenue. The number of horses bred would not matter. Take the same sample of bred horses and the results would be the same. However as of today I have no idea what is going on. When you change the work times of bred horses that the game has used as a guide for countless years then the site ends up playing roulette with the success or fail of this experiment. I literally have zero time to figure these yearlings out and I will wait until the new season to breed horses. This is the bigger issue!

                                What Lone is trying to do is change the the fact that a 1YO is exactly the same as a 2yo by changing the work times and making it difficult for anyone to have certain cemented expectations of what a horse should be based on its works. Its a clever play by lone that will have an immediate negative impact but possibly a better long term play and outcome, Eventually 1Yo will have their own baseline of acceptable works. However i wont be the one doing the experiment or setting the new baseline works for yearlings.
                                Tockyocky Racing
                                From the gate to the wire...stable on FIRE

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