Two changes i would like to see

[Dragon Tattoo]

Hi All, firstly i would like to state that this is only my opinion and i may be the only trainer who feels this way or perhaps there are a couple of others thinking along the same lines.

1... I believe that the mass breeding and horse creation is having a negative impact on the game. Reasons are that horses have absolutely no value anymore, because every week scores more are bred or created and the top 10% of these generally go past what was the leading horses. eg today i may have the best 2yo colt sprinter but next week 4 or 5 better horses may be bred or created that go past it.
I believe the easiest and fairest way to stop this mass proliferation in season is to only allow yearlings to be bred. Then all horses would be on a level playing field. I would also like to see mares only have 1 offspring per season. Will (imo) push values up significantly and gives all stables the chance of having the top horses. As it stands now if someone else has a top horse all the guy the biggest wallet needs to do is breed,create,breed,create until he gets one to go past it.
I know on face value this will not be too popular but if you take some time to consider it i think you will see the benefits

2....I would like to see divisional races in claimers as well as allowances. Too many times i see former champion geldings making their way back through the claiming grades and dominating at the expense of the genuine claiming horse who has only won 1 or 2 races. I would also like to see penalties apply in stakes races for wins in these races during the season

Thanks for reading and happy for admin or other trainers to comment,.

[Two Diamond Farm]

nice post dragon & I agree with you on all points .

[And More Racing Stable]

I understand what you are saying Dragon but the cost of breeding would have to skyrocket in order to limit the breeding the way you suggest because the breeding is the income generator for the site.

The second idea is good. In real racing even claiming races sometimes have limits such as non winners of 2 races, etc. and I don't think that would be a bad idea here.

[Dragon Tattoo]

AMR appreciate your thoughts but i don't think they have to. Have you added up the jockeys fees for a big day of racing? I think there is plenty there to compensate

[Tockyocky Racing]

Dragon....thanks for the rabbits hole on a Sunday morning. Love this stuff.

First and most importantly you are once again (the community) trying to paint a picture where 2yo racing is the be all and end all when in fact its neither of the two. So the post is flawed from the beginning and I mean no disrespect. The site is set up for 3yo and 4yo racing and the problem that continues to rear its ugly head is the constant catering and changes made to the site for the snap reaction of 2yo racing. 3yo and up racing is the most level playing field on the site except 90% of you have zero patience. That's not a site problem that's a trainer problem. Let's geld now! Let's retire now! Let's drop the horse in claimers now! Now Now NOW!

1. Limiting breeding will absolutely never happen. It's is 80% probably of the overall income on the site. Your reply to AMR is way off...it would take 8 - 5 horse field races to equal one breed roughly so if 10 horses get bred in a day it would take 80 races to match that. It's just not there. Limiting breeds DOES NOT INCREASE VALUE...it decreases overall value. You might as well just put a bullet in the entire public breeders aspect of the game. It's on the last leg anyway and cutting back on breeds just makes it worse. I'd start with ways to get more people to ACTUALLY pay the fees that exist now before thinking how can value be increased. Besides limiting breeding because someone has a wallet are we to limit how much someone can pay for a horse privately? It's basically the same thing and if we limit what someone can pay for the horse wouldn't that actually decrease value?

Maybe you consider someone like me as the "wallet guy" However i only bred about 7 horses this week....Is that a lot? How about this....what if I am using a better mare and sire than you and produce a higher % of runners to win on the track. Should I be penalized for that also? Like how far does this go! I'd like to know who is doing "mass" breeding because I don't see any at all and it certainly ain't me.

I get it....everyone has a good 2yo horse. We all think our 2 yo horse should be the best and should be the only 2yo horse to win. When it gets smoked we go nuts and blame everything. Wonder why we don't have these issues with 3yo racing and 4yo racing. You want to be successful around here....build a 3yo racing stable. Use the 2yo platform to be a foundation with the end goal of racing and competing at 3yo and UP. Do you see all the 3yo's that run stakes? Are we to just turn our heads and act like they don't exist because they don't fit our 2yo narrative??

So clearly I am not on board with your opinion of making us all have an equal wallet size. However I am very much on board with part of your first point as I have been saying that the amount of breeds available to a horse are way out of control. Max Breeds for a Sire should be 30 and max breeds for a mare should be 10-12. I wouldn't even mind limiting mares to 1 breed a season. Any limitation of breeds available increase value and help eliminate garbage. This would also breath some life into the private breeder and public breeder aspect of the game.

To sum this up...limiting breeding (spending) is never gonna happen. We can reply back and forth but jockey fees don't even cover server fees. It's a business not a hobby for ownership.

2. Your second point is perfect. Not the gelding in claimers part...people dropping horses down in claimers is their prerogative and it's up to the community to police this by claiming these horses to curb the drops. Restricted racing is your point and there needs to be more of it. Let's look at everything the site use to have and should bring back.

Keep in mind any good working horse has to show this on the track so racing once quickly determines if the horse fired or not which is half the battle and then many only will ever win one so implementing the below points seriously and quickly removes a lot of what we don't like. Chances are if your horse gets through 2 races its far superior than any morning glory. Meaning basically good horses won't get robbed by 1 hit wonders. Prove that your horses isn't a one hit wonder by winning 1 or 2 races because most of the fraud horses will fire first out and be useless after.

1 win requirement to enter a Stakes race - eliminates just born fresh horses first out
2 win requirement for Qualifiers - eliminates just born fresh horses
Non gelded horses only races - eliminates newly gelded or gelded beasts
NW - Non winners of XXXXXXX which is actually the division race code its just not applied to claimers
Weight - weight use to be more consistent by age 118 / 120 - 120 / 122 - 122 / 124. Check allowance races and you will see why it's relevant.

These are just some of the things that use to be in place but have been removed because the site made quick decisions over the years to appease the community without thinking long term. All of what i have in bullet points should be re-implemented immediately and I think this will address much of your overall concerns regarding breeding horses and racing.

I could literally type all day. Good post Dragon!

[Nut Brown Racing]

Why is Toc responding as though he is still an "us" if he left? And if there is an asterisk on his name for racing, would there not be one for breeding and leasing as well? The whole point is he had (or maybe has) access to the back end of the game, right?

I've only been back for awhile, but already can see that it doesn't appear that the players will get a chance to actually play the game in a straightforward way.

[Second To None]

Why is Toc responding as though he is still an "us" if he left? And if there is an asterisk on his name for racing, would there not be one for breeding and leasing as well? The whole point is he had (or maybe has) access to the back end of the game, right?

I've only been back for awhile, but already can see that it doesn't appear that the players will get a chance to actually play the game in a straightforward way.

He didn't say he was leaving, if you read his post you would have seen that he said he would be staying to bred and help new trainers.

[Cold Dog Soup]

I can vouch that Toc doesnt have any current back end access if my word accounts for anything. Being unable to see the hidden numbers on horses (and jockeys) keeps a level playing field. Heck I have access if I wanted to look at them and still wouldnt be able to compete much better than I did when i played because you still cant see heart. I'd have a lot of fast horses but no guarantee they'd win.
One benefit to players of Toc returning is it does open up some info that he once had access to and he is willing to share. It also means that pretty well anything I have access to (besides hidden attributes) I can comment on. Feel free to ask questions.
We did forget to remove Toc's admin ability on the forum and that was removed when he replied to a closed thread the other day. The forum is not connected to the game. He could only see things like deleted comments and the like but now he's in the registered user group like everyone else.

The other stuff in this thread is complicated. Yes there's a site income factor to consider but not as much as a boredom factor. Limiting breeds leads to players being bored. Have a run of bad luck breeding and you are left with a season of losing horses and frustration. The way it is now if your new crop of horses doesnt pan out you can breed 2yo to keep your stable competing. Not an ideal solution considering the issues raised I suppose but something that has to be considered. I think it would be great if every horse bred had a place to be competitive and the game mirrored real life racing a bit more but how to get there I havent a clue.

[Nut Brown Racing]

Thank you Brian. All I am saying is that after being back only a short time it already appears that there is no game here to play, and that a large part of the dynamics of the game are being determined by a player-turned owner-turned player-turned not quite playing but still controlling the horse population individual. Will we ever get to a straightforward game with a consistent set of rules that apply to everyone and some stability to the game structure?

[Tockyocky Racing]

Nut Brown don’t hate because I race better breed better and market better and spend better. This place is too small for me that’s a fact. I will breed and I will help others. Y’all pissed because u see tocky bred horses winning everywhere. New owners are happy. I’m happy. Grab one...hit the circle

I left daily heavy racing because of the tears now u don’t want me to breed horses because of the tears.

Some of if you would not last 2 seconds somewhere else. They don’t even have a forum to speak freely.

Spend less time being a sour puss and actually read stuff I post. Something might hit ya. Good luck on the track and stay focused.

Seriously stop trying to make everything about me on every thread. I am allowed to post and contribute.

[Tockyocky Racing]

I’d like to know what rules don’t apply to me. Also are there any constructive responses to some of the ideas above or I’d this just another bitch session between the haves and have nots

[Nut Brown Racing]

I'm not bitter. The one horse I had in yesterday won nicely,. I'm merely trying to assess what aspects of the game will be available, and whether there is enough entertainment here to be worth the investment of time. It's trending no, which is fine, but Admin has a right to know that players feel that way. I was simply trying to ask why you felt entitled to respond to this thread as though 1) the implications actually would impact you and 2) like a site administrator. We have players. We have admin. According to you, you are none of the above. Not only is your voice not the only one, it is hard to see why it should be relevant at this juncture.

Meanwhile, Dragon was trying to start a good conversation.Dragon I apologize for the diversion. I agree with you on #2; however, would like to see the overall number of races limited and class/division employed more heavily. This could help field size. Regarding #1, I partially agree; however, don't believe breeding can be limited to yearlings. I would rather see breeding allowed during limited windows, and in limited quantities. This would require a much longer explanation, but since the revenue aspect plays so heavily I don't the conversation will get traction.

[And More Racing Stable]

I just don't understand the attitude of some who think that Toc shouldn't be able to voice his opinions or post improvement suggestions just like anyone else. He pays his membership like anyone else and spends his money on the site. I do understand that he brings much of that on himself because he is brash, outspoken and egotistical...sorry Toc just a fact...and some people don't like that. We've had other owners at times with similar boisterous egos and they got hated on too by some other owners...and I'm sure we'll have future ones too. Take it with a grain of salt people because Toc wants to improve the site and does have some good ideas and he is willing to help if you are willing to listen. I know there have been some owners who have objected to any helpful tips being posted even when admin has posted them...too much info they say. If you just want to play the game in your own little bubble that's fine but some of us find some of the background info and tips to be helpful in learning to better play the game. Just ignore them if you don't want to learn but let the rest of us absorb the info.

Now...Toc asked for constructive responses to ideas he posted...so here's my take.

First, I agree that too many owners think of this as a 2yo site only. Breeding 2yo's is where you get started each season for replenishing your racing stable but 2yo racing should not be the end goal. Two thirds of my stable runs at $20K+ claiming and up and 2/3 of my stable are 3-5 yo's. This is by design. Increasing older racing is why I started the Senior Sunday races. One of the best things Admin has implemented is the new breeding requirements to create an incentive to run horses longer.

I'm not sure the minimum win requirement before stakes/Qualifier entry is necessary because those one or two race wonders weed themselves out after that anyway and worrying about "he beat my good horse in that one race" is taking a shortsighted view anyway. That being said...I would also be OK with that if it became a rule.

I'm also not sure that it's necessary to have non-gelded horse races. I personally don't see gelding making that much difference in a horse but I also admit that I don't geld many so my experience in that area is limited.

I like the idea of NW of XXXXX being added to some claiming races, whether it be NW of X number of races or NW of $X earnings in the last season or NW of any race of $X value or more. This would give some of the cheaper horses a chance to earn a little for the smaller owners.

I also agree that weight should be proportionate. I would also like to see some handicap weights being implemented in some instances across all levels of racing. This could make for some interesting stakes races for top proven horses carrying more weight against less proven stakes or allowance horses that owners have hopes for. This could also be incorporated into the claiming program where winners of $X earnings or more +2 lbs., etc.I also have to agree that admin should take a longer view approach to changes because some seem like they are knee jerk reactions trying to please everyone. I personally don't like some myself...i.e. I'm not a fan of OTT. I don't think it makes much difference but then I admit I haven't used it that much either. I would bet though that it hasn't made much difference in stats of how many yearlings are competitive, etc. from previous years without OTT. I'm also not a fan of jockey fees for using different jockeys.

My point is we all have things we like and things we don't like but we need to adjust our game to compensate for what the game is. Suggestions and discussion about improvements are always a good thing no matter who they come from.

[Tockyocky Racing]

I'm not sure the minimum win requirement before stakes/Qualifier entry is necessary because those one or two race wonders weed themselves out after that anyway and worrying about "he beat my good horse in that one race" is taking a shortsighted view anyway. That being said...I would also be OK with that if it became a rule.

I'm also not sure that it's necessary to have non-gelded horse races. I personally don't see gelding making that much difference in a horse but I also admit that I don't geld many so my experience in that area is limited.

I think you may be forgetting why there is a need. Win requirements for Q's and stakes aren't about horses weeding themselves out but more about eliminating the one hit wonders stealing the race and never seen again. What if I did it to your "good horse" every time? Then you think ur good horse is not so good and u geld it or drop it when it should be running stakes as a 3yo. It's no secret that first time out horses run fresh and more so the first race. Because of this...Newly bred horses should not be able to enter a Q or Stakes race unraced and without a win. By the time the horse races and gets a win or two the freshness of the horse is removed and levels the playing field in a Q where then they would weed themselves out. I am not a fan of the current structure but at the same time I will exploit the weakness.

Gelded - nearly the same reason. The first time pop of a newly geld horse can sometimes give an advantage that is tough to overcome in a race first out after geld. In the past non gelded races were needed as there were a few geldings just smashing every race. It's just a way to protect the community and at the same time deter people from gelding recklessly.

AMR - I am brash and outspoken and I do think highly of myself. Confident not cocky! So I am not offended at all. I am a straight up person and prefer to deal with others that are just as straight forward. However I know I am good people and anyone who truly knows me would say the same. No fakes!

[And More Racing Stable]

Like I said I would be OK with those changes because I don't see any real drawback against them.

AMR - I am brash and outspoken and I do think highly of myself. Confident not cocky! So I am not offended at all. I am a straight up person and prefer to deal with others that are just as straight forward. However I know I am good people and anyone who truly knows me would say the same. No fakes!

I know that and I hope you know I didn't mean it with any disrespect but rather as a description to emphasize my point.