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A small "Coming Soon!" caution from my point of view...

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  • A small "Coming Soon!" caution from my point of view...

    First let me say I like 95% of what you are doing with the site Bob. I think you are 100% correct that something needs to be done with the creates in order to attract and keep more new players since that's their main gateway to starting a stable. My biggest suggestion there is to increase the percentage of them that are raceable. I'm not talking about increasing the quality just the quantity that can be competitive at some level. As you know you can spend a lot of money on creates and only get a few worth racing. The low percentage also means that a new players handful of free creates are usually completely disappointing and discouraging to them.

    Now, as far as my caution...I just ask that you be careful with adding too many features such as "Track Preference", "Horse Grade", "Preferred weight", etc.
    Don't take the skill out of the game...these are all skills that make the game interesting by learning them yourself.
    I have recently been dabbling at another site (don't worry not to leave here) to see what they have that might be a good feature to suggest implementing here and to see about recruiting players. What I don't like about that site is that too much info is available about a horses talents and abilities so you barely need to figure anything out on your own. It makes the game rather simple and frankly boring.

    What I like about DD is the skill involved in learning the nuances of the game to become proficient at it. Please just be careful about eliminating too much of the skill in the game.

  • #2
    Originally posted by And More Racing Stable View Post
    My biggest suggestion there is to increase the percentage of them that are raceable. I'm not talking about increasing the quality just the quantity that can be competitive at some level. As you know you can spend a lot of money on creates and only get a few worth racing.
    Hi AMR, thanks for the advice and concern much appreciated. I will address a couple things and I openly challenge anyone to show me how these improvements will have a negative impact on skill. I mean that in a constructive way. I live in my bubble so feel free to poke it.

    Creates - You mentioned quantity not quality. I did not mention anything about changing the quality. Frankly there are some very strong 2yo's right now that are creates. If members choose not to purchase creates that is their decision but they are missing out on quality runners with new bloodlines. Also the majority of creates are purchased with bonus credits. Discussing quantity fits right into my narrative with regards to Graded Horses. Grade restricted racing can possibly double the amount of creates that can participate. So with out me doing a thing with creates the % that can race will increase.

    Grades A-B - Adding a grade to a horse doesn't tell you anything about the horse besides it is a Grade A or B. This also has no impact on skill. What I am certain of though is that more horses will see the track. If a race is a 6F Maiden 2yo B it just means a Grade A horse can't enter, no different than a stakes race with a 1 race run requirement its just a restriction. This is not a skill decision other than knowing what workout times etc can race at 6F. These workout times are all over the forums and contributed by the community as it is. The majority of us know that a 1.09.20 6F horse isn't winning many open races if any at all. However, it can find a career in B graded races. Once less horse retired and one more horse on the track. Basic Grade A and B.

    Preferred Weight - I do not see any impact on skill by adding a preferred weight. 98% of the races are 120/118 2yo, 121/119 3yo and 122/120 4yo up. So regardless if you know a horse has a preferred weight of 121 or not it doesn't change the fact that it will race at 120 pounds as a 2yo. What I do know is a whole lot of horses that get no chance around here and are retired early or gelded etc might actually see the track at 4yo, if I show you the ideal weight is 124 pounds. Patience and Placement separate the best from the rest...at least in my humble experience.

    I also have been on a number of other sites and frankly the majority of them are garbage. One is a good set up but it's completely dead and requires you to take bitcoin as payment and about 7 weeks to get it lol so be careful. The other is good and I appreciate their platform (that hasn't been updated in 10 years) but I could literally build an addition to my house by the time I could enter my first race with a virtual horse. Sorry....that's just ridiculous! The rest that look great and have all these bells and whistles are basically gambling sites with 100% random outcomes, no breeding and zero skill besides knowing what races where. There is no site like this one with the involvement or commitment from management. We just need more members.

    If I am right...we all win
    If you prove me wrong and I change my mind...we all still win.

    So bring the pain show me what I am missing. Let's debate...I have a free night!

    Throw caution to the wind........

    Comment


    • #3
      I've not fully digested all of these changes. I doubt I will be too opinionated on most of them but this grade A/B thing I am not a fan of at all. It feels unnecessary and too digiturf.

      For me, I like the fact that horses can compete anywhere against any other horse and its up to us to figure out where best to place them is part of the challenge.

      The issue here for me lies with the race card and it has done since as long as I can remember. Its not structured enough in my opinion. Loads of different claiming levels, loads of races with random entry fees, it's just all a bit of a jumble.

      I would just like to see a structured race card with opportunities for different levels of horses. You could have maidens with high entry fees and added money, and then low entry fees with no added money. You've got your A & B levels right there and it's up to the trainers to figure out where to put them. Yeah you'll get better horses in low level races but that's just wasteful on the trainees part in my opinion so it's not such a big deal. If someone wants to break maiden running for 8 bucks and miss the 30k purse maiden then that's there mistake.

      The levels are already there in my opinion, the race card just needs refining, and nailing down. Its forever changed as long as I can remember in my years of dipping in and out of the game and often times the racecard is the reason I've dipped back out.

      The levels are there already, you've got low level claimers, stsrt allowance races, conditional allowance races, you've talked about adding handicap races which would be awesome if you can make it work, then you've got your stakes races and champs series. It's all good really it just needs nailing down in my opinion with a few tweaks.

      Also stables need encouraging to keep their horses running. Maybe add some run / win bonuses to try and keep low level claimers alive. Claiming series with added money. Handicap series with valuable handicap races to encourage some strategy.

      Adding 'A & B' grade horses just divides the race card even further and I totally don't understand why we would want that. Or why it's needed.

      Hopefully we can talk more about this before the changes are implemented.

      Cheers
      Wrf
      Season 30 - 2yo Colt Sprint Champ

      Comment


      • #4

        Hey WRF..thanks for the input. Please check the race card on any date February 8th and beyond. It is the most structured race card ever released on this platform that allows for structured additions. I personally spent 200+ hours rebuilding the codes and is not perfect.

        Every game that I know of has some type of grading system be it a number like 97 or stars like 4 of 5 stars or a grade like A. It is useful information. It has less to do with horses or stables and more to do with programming limitations and future options. You have to add data fields to be able to sort data fields to implement programming in the way you want. Just like my example of meet racing and points for different types of races, Those data fields need to be added in order for us to assign points so the program can find what it is looking for. Grades are no different in this regard. Call grades whatever you want for sake of conversation....but if all of the horses you guys would automatically normally retire were labeled Grade B I don't see how it impacts how you currently race the current type of horses. This is where I would like someone to explain to me the negative!

        I need to the ability to add data fields in order to build a better platform. 1 1/8 mile Allowance for horses that have never won 1 Mile or longer (this type of race needs new data fields as an example) I could also add these data fields and not tell you all or show you which is an option that I will consider

        I can't resolve certain things like workout times vs track performance, clear age change +-%, weather etc etc if I don't start making some changes. That is pretty much the situation. This can't remain an as is situation.

        If grades are assigned it wouldn't be any time soon. Its a large project just like bloodlines. Still many day to day clean up issues to focus on.

        Thanks
        Bob
        Last edited by Administrator; 01-26-2020, 09:06 AM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Administrator View Post
          Hey WRF..thanks for the input. Please check the race card on any date February 8th and beyond. It is the most structured race card ever released on this platform that allows for structured additions. I personally spent 200+ hours rebuilding the codes and is not perfect.

          Every game that I know of has some type of grading system be it a number like 97 or stars like 4 of 5 stars or a grade like A. It is useful information. It has less to do with horses or stables and more to do with programming limitations and future options. You have to add data fields to be able to sort data fields to implement programming in the way you want. Just like my example of meet racing and points for different types of races, Those data fields need to be added in order for us to assign points so the program can find what it is looking for. Grades are no different in this regard. Call grades whatever you want for sake of conversation....but if all of the horses you guys would automatically normally retire were labeled Grade B I don't see how it impacts how you currently race the current type of horses. This is where I would like someone to explain to me the negative!

          I need to the ability to add data fields in order to build a better platform. 1 1/8 mile Allowance for horses that have never won 1 Mile or longer (this type of race needs new data fields as an example) I could also add these data fields and not tell you all or show you which is an option that I will consider

          I can't resolve certain things like workout times vs track performance, clear age change +-%, weather etc etc if I don't start making some changes. That is pretty much the situation. This can't remain an as is situation.

          If grades are assigned it wouldn't be any time soon. Its a large project just like bloodlines. Still many day to day clean up issues to focus on.

          Thanks
          Bob
          I give you kudos for the race card you have worked on. I know how difficult it is just from when I started the Sunday Seniors program and tried to structure the right combo of races for that and that was only a very small program. And you are right...it is not and will never be perfect for everyone but it is better.

          Why do we need to be like every other game? I like this game because it's not like every other game.

          That doesn't mean the info needs to be made public. They can be hidden fields just to be used for programming and sorting.

          I understand your purpose in these changes is to get fewer horses retired but IMO these changes also change the game.

          By informing people which surface they should run on does take some skill from the game. There is some skill in determining should I run dirt or turf? Can the horse compete on both? Is he a higher class on one rather than the other? This skill is developed thru racing the horse and the problem has been that turf racing has been severely limited until you have started to work on it. With more turf races at all levels that skill can be better developed without having a horse labeled.

          What you've presented as Grade A and B racing is really nothing more than creating a second class of inferior racing except now instead of having to work a horse to determine that you are going to just tell us up front "Hey your horse won't be able to compete at Belmont so you need to race him at Portland Meadows" (my apologies if anyone lives in Oregon). I agree with WRF it does seem a little Digi to me. The devil might be in the details on this one. Are Class B purses and entries going to be really cheap (a penny level game) compared to Class A? Are they going to be the same it's just you are running inferior horses for the same purses? Are they going to be only for BC's not cash? Being honest with you some of these possibilities don't appeal to me at all and I probably wouldn't run those horses anyway.

          I run several horse until they are 4, 5 or even 6 because I see that some horses do maintain or even improve as they age. I have a few right now that are very lightly raced 4yo who are performing well because I chose to wait on them. IMO Adding a weight preference to a horse essentially telling everyone "this horse needs to mature so you better wait on him" is taking away that skill. The biggest reason IMO many have retired their horses early is because until recently there hasn't been a 4yo & up race program. I think that will be a bigger benefit to racing longer than displaying their preference will be...and those who don't have the patience won't keep them racing anyway.

          I do understand what you are trying to do but the reason I like this site is because it isn't like every other site and it is the closest to real racing. I admit that I am a purist and I'm not crazy about changes that make it less like real racing. Horses aren't born with Dirt or Turf tattooed on their side or with A or B stamped on their forehead or a preferred weight on their rump. These are all things that take some level of skill to determine. I'll roll with whatever you decide to do and adjust my game according to how I want to run it no matter what you incorporate. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree about how much skill we think is effected by these changes.

          Comment


          • #6
            The turf / dirt preference won't change for now. We never told anyone what surface to run on just a preference. Horses can run on both as you know first hand. We speak of real life racing and I am kinda certain trainers know about a preference of turf and dirt through training. That isn't available here in workouts as the difference is subtle and because of this lack of information, turf races on this site went unfilled for years leading to the removal of them on the race card by previous management (I can share numbers of cancelled turf races). A poor decision among many. I wouldn't want to buy a horse and pay entry fees into 6 races on dirt before running on turf and realizing turf might be better all because I can't see this information when training. Now, there will be an abundant amount of turf races to match the % of horses that have that preference. It's about filling races and making sure horses that can race...will race. Instead of running turf horses endlessly on dirt tracks generating poor results leading to premature retirement. The data here is undeniable regarding this specific topic and I truly believe you will all benefit greatly by the new turf card and the added information about preference.

            Good points on weight preference and graded can be argued either way. Graded racing does allow for a different circle of involvement and we need many different types of members for a healthy site. Building the platform around one type of member is a bad idea. People want things to do..stuff to tinker with so on and so on

            As I mentioned before...I don't want everything to be what I dream up. I need input. Thanks for the opinion and because of your opinion I will put the graded and weight preference on hold until these ideas soak a little more. There may be a better way to accomplish what we need. This doesn't change the fact we need to appeal to more of the very casual horse racing fans.

            Thank you!
            Bob

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Administrator View Post
              We speak of real life racing and I am kinda certain trainers know about a preference of turf and dirt through training.
              Bob
              Actually most horses never train on the turf. In fact, most tracks require a trainer to get special permission to work a horse on the turf for some specific reason. I'm talking U.S. racing of course. The primary reason a trainer and owner will decide to run on the turf is pedigree and/or running style or how they handle or don't handle the dirt. Generally speaking the decision to make that first try is usually based on an educated guess.

              I'm not so certain that there aren't maybe some clues in the way a horse trains here that might point to a dirt/turf preference. I'm beginning to do some studying and experimenting in that area.

              Now, my response here got me thinking about how real life trainers use pedigree as a tool to judge where they think a horse might fit both surface and distance wise as well as whether they are likely to be precocious and an early runner or they might need time to mature. I know the sites breeding setup passes certain attributes from parents to offspring. I know some of these attributes can combine to contribute to what the offspring's distance proclivity might be but I don't know whether horses pass tendencies toward surface preference and maturity growth or if these are totally random in the programming. If they are not random but are programmed with inheritance tendencies then I could probably get behind an idea of giving each horse some sort of breeding rating scale for these type of attributes that they might pass as a sire or mare. This wouldn't provide any info that isn't already available but would simply shortcut the time required for the process. In other words I could spend hours and hours researching offspring in a pedigree to see if a sire and family produces 40% turf horses and 60% sprinters and that 65% of them run and win early but fade out after their 2yo campaign but as I said that would take hours of research. A scale on both sire and dam shortcuts this process and then I only need to compare them to make an estimate of what I think the foal might have inherited. This makes it not be an exact science but rather a judgment decision as it is in real racing. Of course if these tendencies are random and not inherited then none of this is possible.

              Just an idea that might merit some consideration.

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